Gwen v MJ

I have been debating my brother on this for the past few weeks, and we need an external opinion. I believe Gwen is fair superior for Spiderman as a love interest to MJ cause Gwen offers more plot development for both Peter and Spiderman. Having Spiderman responsible for the death of her father and Peter having to grapple with his conflicts between saving the people he loves and giving up Spiderman so Gwen has peace is far more interesting than anything MJ ever does for Peter character wise. MJ feels like she's loved just cause she's a red head and has sass. Very one note in my opinion.

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MJ wasn't just pretty, more importantly she was cool. When they weren't getting carried away with soap opera plots she had a lot of funny lines

MJ feels like she's loved just cause she's a red head and has sass.

That is exactly the reason. Redheads were the hottest chicks for nerds back then. Nowadays, it's brown tomboys.

In hindsight, MJ sort of got stuck either going to modeling gigs or fretting at home about Peter being murdered in the line of duty.

I can't imagine what Gwen would be like if she had survived, except thoroughly fucked every night Pete returned home.

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Gwen was Peter's true love. MJ was always a consolation prize.

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I could not agree more. Gwen I feel made Peter more into himself than MJ ever did. MJ reaped the benefits of Gwen's work.

I mean, Gwen was just sort of there. They got together, Peter screwed up because he had to run off to be Spider-Man, they break up. Then they get back together, inexplicably. It just made Gwen feel codependent and bipolar, and if it feels lame, well, it's exactly the same dynamic he has with his current Nick Lowe mandated love interest Shay Marten: it's dull, superficial, and frankly it barely seems like Peter cares or remotely respects her while Shay is bipolar and codependent. In other words, Shay is literally Gwen Stacy 2.0.

MJ always seemed able to accept both Peter Parker and Spider-Man into her life. Peter didn't even tell Gwen, because Gwen loathed Spider-Man and blamed him for her dad's death. Gwen was more interesting when Ditko was on board, because I liked her being a tsundere ojou-sama who didn't necessarily like Peter as a person, but found his indifference maddening and wanted to wrap him around her finger. Meanwhile MJ always had some actual edge behind her, and her arc parallels Peter a lot before OMD tossed out everything people liked to turn them into cardboard cutouts of themselves. Sort of like what happened to Gwen Stacy before she died.

I'd honestly read Ultimate. People bitched and moaned that MJ accepted Peter too quickly and too easily but like... again, she was the only one who understood that Peter can't stop being Spider-Man anymore than he could stop being himself. Even Felicia Hardy took a long time to warm up to Peter Parker the way she did to Spider-Man.

Also MJ is hotter, pic related.

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Felecia

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Forever doomed to be Peter's rebound girl, RIP Pride Month covers.

If we want something different for her, it would require something to actually happen.

You didn't describe why she's a better love interest. You argued her death is more interesting on Peter's character then MJs storylines. That makes her a better plot device by dying, something unrelated to her autonomy as a character.

Based on the comics I've read, I don't know if there's any I missed that would invalidate this feeling, but Gwen didn't really have much of a character or anything going on personally, she was just "the love interest".

Regardless of how you feel about MJ, at least she's always had stuff going on independent of Peter.

Right up until Zeb Wells was writing, she always had her own thing going on aside from being the love interest. Now she is absolutely the love interest, just for a piece of furniture named Paul.

The Gwenification of MJ has been an utter disaster for the comics and why they're killing off Peter permanently during Eight Deaths.

I didn't mention how her death motivated Peter more, I mentioned how Gwen's father death opened up an interesting conflict, which had gwen survived, would have been interesting to explore. Gwen as a character, while lacking some autonomy which was sad fact for love interests of the era, had more emotional depth to what she brought to Peter. Peter is constantly grappling with bow much do I want to sacrifice for spiderman and how much can I sacrifice as Peter. Gwen's fathers death being tied to Peter and spiderman creates an interesting dualism that could have been explored thanks to Gwen.

I mean, in all likelihood, that sort of reveal just has them going through the same cycle. Gwen breaks up with Peter, vowing to hate him. Peter makes some sort of grand gesture or saves her as Spider-Man. They get back together again.

Just the same Gwen Stacy cycle, writ somewhat larger.

Ditko Gwen was probably the best version, then Romita and Conway turned her into a generic cinnamon roll who would do the whole endless break-up and reconciliation thing that other anons pointed out.

Some element of dysfunction, toxicity, and/or passion is needed for a relationship in a comic book to be compelling instead of merely facile. MJ kept it. Gwen lost it.

If Gwen had kept it, I think things would have worked out differently. But as people point out, that's not the Gwen they remember or know. That's not the Gwen they cite, but it's not the Saintly Gwendy who died at the hands of the Green Goblin. If 616 MJ had tried to slap Peter the way Gwen under Ditko did, they'd be lining up to call her a cunt. They couldn't imagine the Gwen they remember doing something like that. They don't care about Gwen's personality, or failings, just that she's nice and way less prone to drama or conflict than other possible love interests like MJ or Felicia. They should honestly just forget all about Gwen and move on to Shay Marten at this point, if that's all they want.

something unrelated to her autonomy as a character.

Who gives a fuck? She's a supporting character, not the main one. This isn't Spider-Man & Gwen, this is Spider-Man.

Shut the fuck up you obsessed freak.

and her arc parallels Peter a lot

No it doesn't. You got gaslit by Conway into thinking she does. They're not the same no matter how many retcons writers introduce to make it so.

I think Spider-Man's girlfriend should be interesting and someone I would like to have in the comic, rather than a blow-up doll who just stands there next to him!

They still gave her an arc, and it was still a good one!

The closest thing Gwen got by comparison was us being told that she had sex with Norman Osborn in the past.

Some element of dysfunction, toxicity

The fuck? No. What's so wrong with these characters having healthy relationships? Let people be happy together for once. Shit like this is why Chat's Spidey's best GF. She doesn't bring bullshit into his life, but a sense of peace that makes the bullshit he already has all the more worth it.

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ITT: Bitter retards gather around to whine about MJ again

She won, you faggots. Accept it already. You're obsolete.

but muh ASM! PAUL PAUL! OMD!

Nobody who's normal takes that shit seriously.

MJ feels like she's loved just cause she's a red head and has sass. Very one note in my opinion

Gwen was the one note one. MJ was the love interest that got actual character growth while Gwen remained an uptight cunt up until her demise. She had to be retroactively turned into a “sweet cinnamon role” because no one liked her original personality

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MJ was Conway's waifu, and could've wrote Gwen better but chose not to. So it was up to later writers to give her more character to varying results.

MJ was the love interest

Not initially. She was the foil for Peter and his relationships.

But Chat did have conflict with Peter. She was friends with Emma, who wanted to steal Peter away. A relationship does need some conflict to have a story around it, it can't just be hugs and smiles! Either external conflict that tests their bonds, or internal conflict that they have to work through together. Neither Peter nor Chat were perfect either, nigger. Things actually have to happen, otherwise all you get is Carlie Cooper, Shay Marten, or Gwen Stacy!

I ain't a zealot who treats this shit as gospel. I see bullshit, I call it out. Simple as.

Bullshit.

MJ has more of a personality while Gwen's purpose is to be a lover with a tragic end. Gwen hated Spider-Man and didn't even know it was actually Peter. MJ has done everything and been through everything with Peter. And that's Spider-Man with a hyphen.

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I think Spider-Man's girlfriend should be interesting and someone I would like to have in the comic

Then write her better. Simple. Why shit on the character when the fault is entirely on the writers?

I blame Romita more for neutering Gwen's edge and toxic personality traits more than I did Conway for finding Romita's Gwen boring.

Meds.

Why dislike MJ being written badly now, when the fault is entirely on the current writers?

Meds.

Take them now.

Emma liking Peter because she's seen his mind is a great constant. To think she's the mutant telepath that likes him the most.

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Ditko Gwen was probably the best version

Literally that chick from Food Wars.

I still think MJ is endgame but I really do like the idea of Peter and Emma getting together in at least one AU. Outwardly it's a bitchy and domineering Stacy bullying an unassuming guy who just lets her walk all over him.

Inwardly? Emma is the codependent one desperate for Peter's approval, and terrified of him rejecting her if she goes too far.

Why dislike MJ being written badly now

Who said I did?

Yeah man, the tsundere ojou-sama. If they just kept that, but had Gwen develop more naturally or become less self-centered gradually instead of immediately veering to generic and deredere, she probably would have lasted much longer.

Sorry, I'm too used to dealing with this one Polish pedophile dude who just would have spammed the thread to death with Paul Rabin over and over.

A relationship does need some conflict to have a story around it

No shit.

it can't just be hugs and smiles!

Never said it had to be.

Neither Peter nor Chat were perfect either, nigger.

Never said they were. The point was that she wasn't a cunt to him just because. Outside shit would screw with them, but they'd come out of it much stronger. If your GF's disrespecting you and giving you shit for things out of your control, dump her. You don't need that shit in your life.

while Gwen's purpose is to be a lover with a tragic end.

She wasn't intended to die, dude. They just chose her instead of May to have that shocking death.

If your GF's disrespecting you and giving you shit for things out of your control

When the fuck did I say that?

I noticed you cut out the part where I said and/or passion. Listen, a romance where two people initially dislike each other, but get to know each other and fall in love, is good shit. But that wasn't even what happened with MJ. But it's what SHOULD have happened with Gwen, instead.

I can see Emma treating Peter like she treats Scott but nicer. Dry, sarcastic comments followed by a little reassurance because she knows how mentally vulnerable he is. She really would be boosting his confidence whenever she can. He can't hide anything from her and she'd be dealing with anyone putting him down.

You know, I have to wonder what it's like for a telepath to mindread someone who's a lot smarter than them.
Peter is quick, knowledgeable, impulsive, sarcastic. I'd imagine his mind might be rolling faster than Emma can keep up/understand.
Then again, I don't know how fast the speed of thought is.

Nobody internally really cared overmuch when it was suggested killing her. The guys who are running the show at Marvel right now are the people who wrote angry fan-letters over to Conway with her death. And even they don't care enough to bring her back despite still being pretty butthurt.

But it's what SHOULD have happened with Gwen

Had Ditko stayed on, we might've gotten that.

But what has she been over the years whenever she's brought up? If I had the collage of her neck snaps then I'd post it. That's Gwen's legacy. At least the Norman stuff got retconned away.

I know, but he didn't so why bother now? Ancient history at this point. MJ kept her internal conflicts and flaws, Gwen didn't. I liked 1610 Gwen Stacy because she was a really hot mess too, just like 1610 MJ.

The LAST thing Peter needs is a girlfriend that treats him like shit. Not only that but Emma is genuinely an awful person.This is a terrible idea and shipperfags should be drawn and quartered

She was supposed to come back for BND, but was ultimately replaced with Carlie Cooper. Anyone find it interesting how her and Spec Gwen look eerily similar? She's in policework like George Stacy, while on the science side of things like when Gwen was a science major.

People's minds have been shown to be a collection of rooms with memories or a database with information that can be pulled up. It's only bad for a telepath when there are mental defenses or the person is mentally unstable.

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But what has she been over the years whenever she's brought up?

Spec and TASM.

it's been half a century, how the fuck are Gwenfags still around to simp for this one-note blonde whose two most significant moments were dying and getting her pussy slammed by Norman (F Sins Past, taken too soon)?

The LAST thing Peter needs is a girlfriend that treats him like shit.

Especially since his life is already shit. Why invite more bullshit into his life? Can the man have a fucking reprieve from the nonsense with a great gal for once? Come on.

No no, not treated like shit. The moment you see what the relationship is really like internally, you see that Peter is the one holding all the cards here.

Peter is a model of ruthless self-abnegation that would put 8th Century Catholic Monks living under strict vows of silence to shame. If Emma breaks up with Peter? Fine. Horrible things happen, business as usual, life goes on, time to suit up and save the day. He didn't take a day off when Gwen died, he's barely going to bat an eye if Emma leaves.

But if Peter breaks up with Emma? Emma wakes up almost every goddamn night worrying about that. If someone like Peter loves you, you can't be all bad. He saw some decency and something to love in her that even Emma can't understand despite being able to literally read his mind.

So what the fuck happens to her, if he ever stops doing that?

Ah yes the cartoons that never got to her death. Why not throw in Mexican Spider-Man as well since they kept her alive in that? But that ass of hers is worth disregarding continuity.

MA Emma mindfucked everybody just to have Spidey to herself. She became obsessed with him.

It's funny because they really, really tried with Carlie. And nobody liked her. And nobody really cared when she left.

Like between MJ, Felicia, and Gwen, Carlie barely fucking registered. And she was also meant to be Gwen 2.0, but with actual development and characterization compared to Shay.

Ah yes the cartoons that never got to her death

Why does she always need to die? Been there, done that. Back then, it was a shock. A surprise. Now, fuck no. So why do it? Just cause it's in the source? That's stupid. You're already creating an AU the moment you started making changes and moving and merging stories and characters. Why be 1:1 in that respect?

That's actually good shit. Codependent and obsessive as hell. She wouldn't dare mindfuck Peter because otherwise her feelings for him wouldn't mean anything otherwise, and there's also a combination of terror and guilt at the thought of Peter realizing she's doing this. But love is often a possessive and covetous thing.

I like Hickman's Ultimate Gwen, so far.

MFW this entire panel turned out to be complete bullshit.

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Anon I'm talking about the comics and you're retreating to cartoons that ended years ago. If that's the world you have to go in order to show that Gwen is more than that dead girl Peter loved then you might as well head to Mexico as well.

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK FANS JUST EMBRACE ABSOLUTE TRAINWRECK WOMEN PAIRING UP WITH HIGHLY DYSFUNCTIONAL MEN

THAT SHIT IS WHY JAPAN IS BEATING US

Spider-Man is a multi-media IP. He's much more than just the comics.

Emma threatens to leave

Peter says 'okay, I understand.'

Emma immediately falls to pieces and begs him to never leave her.

I'm envisioning that this relationship can best be described through the "Domination Loss" tag on h-doujinshi

THAT SHIT IS WHY JAPAN IS BEATING US

They got their fair share of dysfunctional shit too. Plenty of bullshit relationships in anime and manga. Many times because the men in these titles and the ones writing them are weak and spineless.

You think she'd try to baby trap him?

I like the relationship in Kaguya Wants to be Confessed To because they're a mess of insecurities and are fixated on having power over each other because they're afraid of being rejected if they're ever the weak one.

I think not, if only because she herself is terrified of what sort of mom she'd end up being.

Remember when Peter had a spine and a temper? Remember when he had very low tolerance to bullshit? Remember when he didn't immediately become a true hero after Ben's death and had to develop gradually into that role?

Maybe being with Peter might make the idea easier to stomach.

I kind of like the idea that Peter is more interested in kids while Emma is staring wide-eyed and assuming it'll be a disaster and she'll be terrible.

The most interesting thing Gwen ever did was die. Everything people claim to like about her is a retcon.

goes from character foil to being the main love interest

Again more character growth. Gwen only went from being alive bitchy girlfriend to dead bitchy girlfriend

Like other anons pointed out she was more interesting during Ditko, but from Romita onwards she was just sort of tedious and formulaic, pretty much Betty Brant 2.0.

And what would happen when she sees their kid for the first time?

I'd say a lot of it depends on how much Peter and Emma have been able to work through their issues by then. But I assume they'd have worked on it quite a lot, because if nothing else Peter is too responsible to bring in a kid into an unhappy life.

Yes, a lot of these stories have a shit ton of repetition. A lot of repeating and redundant ideas that adaptations streamline to cut the fat.

I'm just so sick of the whole thing where Peter goes on a date, has to bail on the date to be Spider-Man, and then goes back have an argument with a girlfriend followed by a breakup because of it. It was already tired and stale in the fucking sixties, and when they did it for the thousandth time with Shay Marten eyes rolled back into my head and I chuckled and said 'Zeb just made nu-Gwen AGAIN' before realizing that she was a complete fucking waste of my time and energy.

You know the first time they stopped doing that shit? When they actually poked fun at themselves because they kept on doing that shit? It was Peter's first date with MJ. It was the first time being Spider-Man helped him out with a girl. That was clever and funny. It was good writing. And it's one of the reasons people still like Mary Jane.

You were always the wrong guy, until you weren't.

This very much applies to OG Spider-Man.

She was okay with it because she was a hippie that didn't give two shits about relationships. Shit was whatever to her. The flighty ditzy party girl.

It's kind of why I liked the scene in Hickman's Ultimate where MJ decides she's not angry at all with Peter for being Spider-Man. It's just a firm assurance that, whatever else comes their way, the readers won't have to deal with the same tired, tropey, and downright tedious BND horseshit that goes on in 616 Spider-Man. Nope, MJ understands why it's important for Peter to be Spider-Man, and doesn't want him to stop either.

And it's one of the reasons people still like Mary Jane.

Except later on she'd give Peter shit for it anyway.

If we're giving a nothing character like Gwen apologetics for when she's written badly then surely we can do the same for MJ.

And that was a hundred times more interesting the shit we had already seen dozens of times of before.

a nothing character like Gwen

What is your damage with Gwen? Is MJ your waifu or something?

My guy, Gwen has been dead for forever and at this point I've seen far more of Earth-65 Gwen than I ever have of 616 Gwen Stacy.

Gwen has been dead for forever and at this point

She's been in shit outside the comics, dude.

Okay, I like those a bit better. But they've never had all that much going on with Peter Parker either, outside of things like the Andrew Garfield movies.

MJ cheated on peter with paul, gwen never did conclusion MJ is a cheater therfore Gwen wins end of debata and thread

Mhm, nah. You’d have to be Polish, or some sort of pedophile to buy that argument.

What is your damage with MJ? Just back off.

the virgin MJ x Pete fag

the equally virgin Gwen x Pete fag

the deluded virgin Felicia x Pete fag

Vs

the CHAD Pete doesn’t deserve love and should die alone mocked by everyone around him (he sold his daughter to the devil) scholar

Only if we’re taking about 616 Peter, who at this point can die in a fire for all I care. I ain’t buying his cuckbook.

What is your damage with MJ?

Don't have any. Just not a fanboy who thinks she's the bees knees.

Why even continue to have 616 at this point? This shit's been going on since the 60s. Only the most hardcore of nerds give a shit anymore.

It’s in bad need of a reboot and a fresh start at this point, and that’s basically what 6160 already is despite 616 lurching around like a zombie. And that’s why 6160 has more positive engagement and better sales than 616 too!

Other IPs reboot their properties all the time specifically because audiences change with time. TMNT and Transformers understood this. Why can't Marvel?

Only because they were rarerified by genetics and hollywood picking them up young
Brown tomboys exist. The one piece is real

and that’s basically what 6160 already is

Too bad the everything else is meh and shit. Give me a Spidey book where Pete's more jock than nerd, but is a loner due to his temper and overall demeanor. Rather than science, he's into wrestling and MMA. Dude's flawed to the point of being a dick, but gradually becomes a real hero as time goes on and experiences what it means to truly be Spider-Man.

That’s just an AU with Flash Thompson being Spidey instead.

You're just another useless shit-talker regardless.

Go jump off a bridge you attention whore faggot.

He’s better than Gwenschizo so I at least will be polite to him

I don't know why people call Gwen generic, she was ride or die as fuck, she defended Peter in public completely baselessly never doubting him for a second so many times it's ridiculous, it came off as that "he said no pickles" meme

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Things got a bit fickle with her to be truly rude or die. They had just as many breakups as moments like these. Peter would do something that made him look bad because he’s Spider-Man and has to protect his secret identity, and Gwen storms off tearfully. They were both pretty young and prone to overdramatics, but it got too cyclical.

Didn't she call May out on her bullshit too? May used to be a real cunt back in the day. She fucked Otto knowing he was a fucking villain.

MJ is important bc she's normal and has a fairly regular life outside of yk dating Spidey. AND she loves Peter more than anything... that's the thing, she'll never stop loving him and caring for him.

but it got too cyclical.

Because it's comics. This shit's known for spinning its wheels. Always filler. Even back then the books were subject to change at the drop of a hat to synergize with outside media as the latter had more eyes on it.

Is there any line of comics where they're actually dating for a long period?

AND she loves Peter more than anything... that's the thing, she'll never stop loving him and caring for him.

Same can be said for the others.

I reread the issues from George's death to her death recently and I don't recall a single time she gave Peter trouble, he had to "run away from danger" as Peter so many times it was ridiculous and she just kept standing up for him every time to people calling him a coward

That's literally Gwen in the first 120 issues of ASM

Pretty much you can only say the same for Gwen and Felicia. That’s why they’re the big three. All other love interests eventually fell out of love with Peter.

She gave Peter shit for it during Ditko, but even under Romita she broke up and then reconciled with him at least five times from what I recall. One time she fucked off to London.

MJ

Ultimate

Felicia

Noir

Gwen

What title could Gwen get? What kind of AU?

What kind of AU?

I do like what anons are cooking with this Showa Kamen Rider meets FF7 concept.

But you’re boring, just go with Spider-Gwen but her version of Peter never dies.

But you’re boring

The fuck did I do?

One time she fucked off to London.

She just kept waiting for Peter to come get her

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Sorry I meant to say, but IF you’re boring and forget the IF. My bad. You’re cool, anon.

Can you nerds quit being such fucking cucks? Are y'all porn addicts or something? Jesus.

That’s psychotic but I like it.

I will say this thread is starting to turn me around on Gwen even if Gwenschizo worked hard to ruin her for everyone.

It's cool, dude. But I agree, no Spider-Gwen.

I like Kamen Rider, and I think making her a scientist that ended up falling in love with her experiment is just the sort of messy drama Spider-Man needs.

Oscorp wants to flush Dr. Stacy’s her greatest creation

Her fucking MASTERPIECE

Calmly and carefully decides she’d rather go utterly postal

Do a thing where Peter isn’t sure whether to fuck her or kill her, and a lot of violent hatesex before it evolves into something more emotional.

I think making her a scientist that ended up falling in love with her experiment is just the sort of messy drama Spider-Man needs.

I fuck with that. So she works at Oscorp like in TASM?

Yeah probably, and Oscorp a front for a global conspiracy bent on world domination ala SHOCKER

Love it. Want more.

Yeah the modern perception of OG Gwen is as just some passive decorative flower made during a sexist time, which is ironically sexist with how much attitude she had and how she didn't take bullshit from anyone

They're working with Hydra? Or AIM?

What’s wrong with Peter having Gwen, Felicia, and MJ simultaneously!

Probably one or the other, but I imagine Norman is an executive in at least one branch. Maybe something like Chronos in Guyver where Norman is a boss, but not THE boss.

Gwen was always into Peter Parker even though they barely talked

sold him as the ideal candidate to be kidnapped for her project, with nobody aware that Gwen tailor made the project for him specifically.

He’s the perfect genetic match for Spider-Augmentation because Gwen knew that was the Augment he was most suited for from the beginning, and only chose a spider as the template for her project because of it

Made sure the brainwashing protocols, aside from loyalty to the organization. Also included “unconditional positive regard and unswerving affection for her handler”

Norman realizes all this and is so weirded out that he insists the project be scrapped or given over to someone else.

Gwen snaps and frees a very pissed off and furious Peter Parker from confinement, with zero mental reprogramming and only a killswitch that will go off in the event of Gwen’s death to get him to play ball

They’re stuck working together to rebel against the organization despite Peter initially loathing her and being disgusted by her one sided fixation

Peter gradually grows to empathize with and fall in love with Gwen despite a disastrous introduction

Peter also has Go Nagai sideburns, and has gone from a wallflower to someone extremely violent, and embittered and resentful after everything that happened.

How’s that all sound?

I like it but I think it needs some tightening up

I like the idea that Peter and Gwen are complete strangers to each other at first instead, and that Gwen only starts to develop feelings for Peter while cutting him up and putting him back together again. It's a combination of genuine empathy and Lima Syndrome, Gwen is surprisingly naive and inexperienced despite the amoral experimentation.

Gwen eventually becomes more guilt-ridden and despondent, maybe even suicidal as she keeps having to torture Peter at Osborn's behest. Eventually Norman realizes she's emotionally compromised, and demands Peter be scrapped. Gwen instead elects to commit a form of suicide by freeing Peter and letting him rampage by 'setting her monster loose.'

Rather than a killswitch, Peter instead lets her live for pragmatic reasons: she set him free, she knows how his body works and what it can do better than he does, and maybe a part of her does like him. But I'd definitely keep the whole resentment transitioning into passion. Maybe make Gwen even more zealous about "vengeance for Peter" than even Peter is.

Peter also has Go Nagai sideburns

YES

So is the suit a transformation or just a regular costume? Is it like a symbiote thing like in Ultimate?

I was thinking something like classic Kamen Rider, where he's a mutant cyborg even at baseline, but the actual transformation doesn't take place until he deliberately invokes it.

So the webshooters are built into his very being then.

Give him something like Black's Henshin as a send-up.

youtube.com/watch?v=9bJvZxNClfY

That's a funny compromise between organic and synthetic web-shooters and I'm all for it.

So anons, between MJ's issues, Gwen Stacy's issues, and Felicia Hardy's issues, both in mainline and in AU's, is the key to being a lasting Spider-Man love interest having an insane amount of angst and tragedy in their lives that is comparable to Peter's own?

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Give him something like Black's Henshin as a send-up.

Have it be a watch instead of a belt like in Unlimited. youtu.be/fCw3pxL_7FE?si=0C4UzTwvWvE9W-ah

So anons, between MJ's issues, Gwen Stacy's issues, and Felicia Hardy's issues, both in mainline and in AU's, is the key to being a lasting Spider-Man love interest having an insane amount of angst and tragedy in their lives that is comparable to Peter's own?

Like part of what got MJ so into Peter Parker during "Spider-Man loves Mary Jane" when it was running was the fact that Peter was coping with his own sorrows much better and more empathetically than MJ was. I think it fits. He has problems just as bad as theirs, so they empathize. But they also see how much more gracefully he copes, and they admire too.

Everything we know about classic Gwen leads me to believe Peter knew she was never gonna be ok with him being Spider-man. Meaning he was never gonna tell her and unless he gave up webslinging their relationship was ultimately doomed.

Everything we know about classic Gwen leads me to believe Peter knew she was never gonna be ok with him being Spider-man.

She would've, but he never gave her the chance. Plenty of what ifs showed she would've been fine with it.

It does feel that way, but on the other hand, Peter saved her life several times just by being Spider-Man.

I never really got the idea that Peter being Spider-Man was somehow harmful or dangerous to his loved ones because, looking at it objectively? By the time George Stacy died and then Gwen Stacy died, Peter had already saved them both as Spider-Man several times over. If anything, they were lucky to know Peter, or they'd have both been killed even sooner.

If Peter wasn't Spider-Man, MJ would have been killed by the Vulture just for witnessing that one murder, long before they ever got together officially. Honestly, if they weren't close to Peter, they would have all been written off as random crime statistics in the hellhole that is Marvel's version of NYC.

Aunt May would have been dead if Peter hadn't gotten her the cure at the climax of Ditko's run.

BNDfags are too harsh to Peter. Given how many times Peter stopped New York from getting wiped off the face of the earth just through a random cataclysm or act of terror, everyone Peter knew and loved and even Peter himself would have died dozens of times over by now if he were never Spider-Man.

You can't even argue the Batman thing that his villains wouldn't exist without Peter, either. The only three villains out of a vast, vast list that had anything to do with Peter in particular were Scorpion (and that was more Jonah and Smythe's fault), Hydro-Man (largely by random chance), and Venom.

I think the secret formula to being a lasting love interest for Peter that the fans will accept is: knowing he's Spider-Man, and liking him both as Spider-Man and Peter Parker. Gwen never really got that chance, but she might have. Meanwhile the reason why, after countless failed alternative love interests, Chat Sandoval was the only that seemed to stick for people is because she also accepted Peter and Spider-Man into her life.