loves Truman for dropping the A bombs to save lives
-hates Ozy for killing people to save lives
What's this guy's problem? He also loves to kill rapists but then makes excuses for Comedian
loves Truman for dropping the A bombs to save lives
-hates Ozy for killing people to save lives
What's this guy's problem? He also loves to kill rapists but then makes excuses for Comedian
That's the fucking point. He's a hypocrite, and when he realizes it he can't live with hinself.
He says "Never Compromise" but does so constantly.
Ozy didn't save anyone.
Why does it take everything at Karnak for him to realize he's a hypocrite?
The first issue where Doc zaps him outside the army base for calling rape a moral lapse should have been his first wake up.
Well he adverted at least imminent nuclear disaster, how long the cooled tensions last is deliberately vague though, that is correct.
That's absurd. He didn't do anything of the sort. He killed people for literally no reason just to feed his own delusional superiority complex.
We see the news report of cooled tensions. Even if only for a day, he prevented nuclear war.
The only thing I can think of is that when Truman did it he didn't pretend it was some other party dropping the bombs as part of a false flag operation to lie and mislead people.
And if nuclear war happened the day after, would it still have been worth it?
No, but then it wouldn't really matter that he murdered all those people either.
That's true, but the principle of "Truman dropped the bombs to save lives" is still there.
Didn't I BTFO you a few years ago? You posted this exact bait about "loves the A-bomb but cries over New York" to which I replied: "The reality finally sunk in after it happened to his own home." Then you deleted your own thread.
I'm glad you remember a thread from years ago where you totally pwn OP into deleting his thread, but I'm sorry to say that wasn't me.
Well now you know the answer to this supposed hypocrisy.
That still doesn't really absolve him of hypocrisy. "I didn't care until it happened to me" is still hypocritical when he previously idolized a man for doing it.
you have to share the same values you did when you were 10 or else you’re a hypocrite
He starts his journal with admiring Truman, it's not just having the same morals as his 10 year old self.
if your morals change at any point due to you learning a lesson from an unexpected experience it means you are a hypocrite
No, you're a hypocrite if you have double standards. Did Rorschach change his morals, or did he just double down on "never compromise" but only when it suits him?
Ditko was grooming nannies
Leftwingers are dimwitted and believe that if they can find one or two common elements between two things, they are the same thing
Truman had mandate to end the war from his country and its allies, Ozy appointed himself and had some secret cabal to validate him
Japan was a fucking aggressor and Axis member who have started the war, when nobody else was obligated to suffer through it any longer than it was necessary
Any reasonable government would have given up in Japan's situation
Japan was a genocidal colonialist that didn't want to abandon own colonies
Japan was willing to drag the war to make America bleed enough to let them keep the colonies
Any strategy of making Japan unconditionally surrender would have resulted in much higher civilian loss than the nukes
Truman never hid what he did, unlike Ozy
History has proven that Ozy was retarded and in real life the West with Manhattan would have won Cold War even faster and harder
I know left wingers love to side with criminals more than their victims, but maybe draw a fucking line when it comes to Axis countries. Nukes didn't even touch the two most devastated cities of WW2
they are the same thing
That's not the argument, nobody said that
History has proven that Ozy was retarded
Watchmen's 1986 is extremely different from the real world's 1986, it's an alternate timeline where the US won Vietnam, became a fascist authoritarian state, and created a superweapon much stronger than any nuke (Manhattan), which completely removed any possibility of peace with the USSR. I can't imagine missing the point of the comic as hard as you did.
you are missing the point because Watchmen was about Moore projecting XIX century British Empire on America and demoralizing any opposition to the Soviet Union
I am not missing anything, Moore always knew fucking nothing about politics, which still doesn't stop him from going to Guardian and acting like a geriatric anarchist superhero comics books writer is a politicial visionary, while berating right wingers for being immature for liking superhero entertainment
If you are arguing that it is hypocritical to side with Truman but oppose Ozy you fucking are arguing they did the same thing
You're missing everything because you think you aren't. Wake the fuck up.
nt but kind of argument is this?
those who can't argue impute, but he sucks even at that
This anon is right. I hate how Moore's pansy and half baked views of American politics are taken as gospel by so many comic nerds.
I've been asking the same questions whenever a Watchmen thread appears and no one bothered to provide proper answers.
Why is Rorschach somehow a hypocrite for opposing Ozy killing millions in New York just because he supported Truman a-bombing Japan to end the war?
Ozy killed everyone who cooperated with his plan or knew the truth and forced the heroes to accept his plan or risk mutual destruction. He even cheered when "his" plan succeeded but soon began conflicted when he asked Dr.Manhattan if the ends justified.
Truman bombed Japan because they would not surrender and were clearly ready to fight to the death and an invasion of Japan would have been a costly and time consuming war that would devastate Japan.. He never hid his involvement in agreeing to bomb Japan and was adamant that he did the right thing in ending the war with mininal blodshed.
You just spelled out the hypocrisy. Either he figured out that nuking Japan was wrong and that if he was ever suspicious of the government of killing innocents on either side, he knows about acceptable losses.
Ozy did more for peace than bombing Japan ever did, that willing to theorize about how much life you saved by killing civilians, how charitable you are to the US government versus how you feel about Ozy, how much life is worth how much potential peace, is where you find Rorschach's hypocrisy as well as common hypocritical stances of many.
Truman
doesn't want WWII to continue
nukes enemy to end the war
Ozy
doesn't want WWIII to start
quasi-nukes enemy and his own people to stop both of them from doing anything
Ask Philippines and Poles if they would rather have their two cities nuked instead of their whole country being invaded. Their capitals have suffered greater devastation then the nukes have brought upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
There is no hypocrisy in opposing Ozy and agreeing with Truman. You and Moore are just West hating left wingers that want to demoralize us, to the point of siding with the most maniacal and genocidal of Axis governments, to the point of absolving them from any responsibility over handling the war in which they were the aggressors.
Nukes were justified, and all blame goes on the Japanese government, and those are historical facts. Every excuse Ozy has is the invention of the author, the author who never gave a crap about the victims of the Japanese and made a false equivalence that has disregard their unjust suffering during a war that was started by the Japanese. I challenge you to post Moore's story that recognizes their viewpoint if you want to prove me wrong.
Believing Truman did nothing wrong: "Two atomic bombs were good because it saved more lives in the long run"
Believing Ozymandias did something wrong: "A psychic attack on New York is bad even though it will save more lives in the long run"
Nukes were justified, and all blame goes on the Japanese government, and those are historical facts
If that were truly a historical fact, then why were there contemporaneous members of the U.S. Army that believed it was unnecessary?
Just because you swallow the popular narrative doesn't make it "historical fact."
You have maturity of somebody who wants the X-Men to unironically lecture Black people and Jews that they never have been nearly discriminated as mutants. Even if it is true in universe, it is absolutely tone deaf for a writer to point it out.
Also, like said in
You absolve the Japanese government from its responsibility to not drag the war in which they were an aggressor that was purposefully refusing to give up and accepted the massive civilian lose that was going to happen during the invasion
The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are indefensible and represent the perhaps the worst single incident perpetuated by humans.
some people had different opinions, though
but I don't bring their arguments
very nice personal attack but that doesn't actually address anything I said
Because I'm not making their argument, I'm specifically disagreeing with the notion of it being "historical fact," because the existence of disagreement within the United States' Army itself shows that it is subjective.
My thoughts on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are irrelevant, but to say their justification is a fact is objectively wrong.
citizens of Warsaw and Manila didn't know how Germans and Japanese were good for them
Like I've said, you are willing to whitewash Axis to attack the West. I mean, given how the Last of Us has portrayed Nazis vs Christians, we all should know that, deep down, left wingers are the real Nazi lovers.
it is not a fact, because some people are disgusting it
like the Earth being round
Earth's shape is objective, yes. Justifications are subjective.
are disputing* it
The A bombs were dropped on a hostile enemy nation during a war. Ozy was killing a shitload of people who were not his enemies in any sense.
Nope, all war is retarded (except against Israel)
Unless you can present a strategy that would have forced the Japanese to give up their colonies without causing bigger casualties among their civilians, lack of an alternative strategy to nukes is a fact.
And who were responsible for prolonging the retarded WW2 war?
There were many suggested strategies by members of the U.S. Army as an alternative to dropping the bomb.
en.wikipedia.org
Assistant Secretary Bard was convinced that a standard bombardment and naval blockade would be enough to force Japan into surrendering
The 1946 United States Strategic Bombing Survey in Japan, whose members included Paul Nitze,[99] concluded the atomic bombs had been unnecessary to win the war. They said:
>There is little point in attempting precisely to impute Japan's unconditional surrender to any one of the numerous causes which jointly and cumulatively were responsible for Japan's disaster. The time lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a more rapid and decisive determination of national policies. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion.
>Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.[100][101]
It is simply not a historical fact. I guess you could call it an... ahistorical narrative.
Jews
regular bombing
Been tried, with more casualties than from nukes
naval blockade
Yes, because starving the entire country would save lives
The surviving Japanese gov folks said
They had a tie when voting for the surrender post the nukes, and when the Emperor went ahead on his own, there was an attempt by the army to stop him
Argue with them, not me, I'm not making the argument. I'm saying the arguments exist, therefore the justification is not historical fact.
As long as he belongs to his tribe or is favourable to his cause, Rorschahc will excuse things.
Kinda yes. He is very strict in certain areas. But in the end is so conflicted by this that he is not fighting Manhattan!
He did save the people in Afghanistan. After the squid the Russians stopped the invasion in Afghanistan.
good posts until this
wtf is this shit, Ozy had one of the best looks but this looks like shit
Because Karnak is everything but 1000%. This is where it he got an overload.
Ozy did the same as Truman and has instantly success as the Russians and the US americans agree on peace. Than everyone agrees to play along. Manhattan, the mightiest hero, coming along.
Thats when Rorschach realized he fucked up and let Manhattan kill him.
Thats some Gibbons designs for the movie.
No, but we see that the nuclear war didnt happen. And after all the reactions from the soviets, there will be no direct nuclear war for momths.
You are right and wrong. The situation are different but in the end have a similar reason or outcome.
Ozy did it as a vigilante, posing as a god without official mandate. But the outcome is very similar since it both ends war and saved more people than got killed.
Why does Dr Manhattan just like immediately become the puppet of the Government until his gf breaks up with him and he goes to Mars?
if people argue the Earth is flat its roundness is dubious
and I don't have to defend their points
Because after his transformation he is largely a person who has little agency and drive and becomes increasingly detached from human affairs
You're still confusing subjective and objective
fictional outcome was the same as the real one
And the discrimination of Jews and Black people is a joke when comparing to what mutants face.
The whole story is about hypocrisy. Ozymandias and the Comedian are hypocrites too.
I still can't defend the points I brought up, can we dispute semantics instead?
after all, I am just a humanist vermin who has no greater purpose in life than violate and confuse language beyond its intended usage of ideas and information exchange
Truman's bombing wasn't a lie that would crumble and create it's own aftermath when people either discovered the truth or realized the dots don't connect, as shown in both separate continuations of The Watchmen.
Damn dude, you got filtered by basically what other dumbass anons want you to believe
That sucks ass
Then it's the worst argument for hypocrisy ever.
Cool it with the antisemitism.
detached
Moore added a scene of Dr. Manhattan watching Owlman plowing Silk Spectre in the Ozzy dungeon. He's human and has human emotions he just doesn't cope with the fact that humans will never connect with him because he's well, Dr. Manhattan. I also believe that Ozzy meddling with his powers of prescience helped him get more in touch with his human side.
Japs aren't people