character was on a top ten wanted list back when it included bank robbers
my autism dictates that he's le heckin' Bin Laden and beyond redemption so let's undo all his character development and make him the same one-note villain he's always been
t. John Byrne
Honestly, this character regression is just as bad as OMD. It's just Sandman is so dull as a villain that nobody cares to raise much of a stink about it.
Sandman was honestly better as a reserve hero. There was no reason to make him a villain again either since Hydro-Man exists. It’d be like making Abner Beetle again, even though Janice is right there
Poor Flint and Morrie both got screwed by this
It was bad but nowhere near omd/bnd levels.
I miss good Sandy.
It's probably the only change Byrne did that sort-of stuck, partly because it happened at a really bad time
happened during the final years of Harras-era
Quesada comes on board and the objective is flanderized characters lacking nuance to sell to the movie audiences so it's in their best yet shallow interest to keep Sandman a villain
Zeb Wells does a Sandman story that doesn't really fix things
Some others tried to go the more sympathetic route but this is one of the few things that needs to be fully fixed.
A stretchy ex-convict with an iconic costume?
This is why I hate when people say modern comics have no villains, maybe it’s because they’re more interesting when they’re playing the good guy
I’m shocked no one has written it yet, it feels like a slam dunk of a story waiting to happen. Maybe it’s an editorial thing.
At least 6160 Sandman seems like a chill guy.
I just wish Abe would stop getting shit on
Nobody wears brown pants and striped green shirts
Especially considering what happened to him
This. Hydro man checks off every retard elemental god check list that Sandy could do. Exploring Sandman more as blue collar hero would have done more.
I wonder if Sandy could've gotten his own book if he stayed redeemed
SM3 Sandman wasn't even evil though, it even ends with him being forgiven by Peter. Quesada's such a fucking moron, holy shit.
I’m fine with a bit of it because Abe always takes it in stride, but I do wish he got to be in the Avengers given Melissa was also a member. I also want him to be a member because I think interactions between him and Tony would be funny given he canonically stole Stark tech before
I doubt he would have gotten his own book since most redeemed villains don’t, I could definitely see him being used more on either the Avengers or being put on the Thunderbolts. I’m honestly shocked Sand has never been on the Thunderbolts, feels like the perfect team for him and Rhino was a member once, too
How does spider man fight all these elemental intangible one piece villains in his gallery
He usually outsmarts them and uses their elements against them. I know he tricked Sandman into heating himself up into glass and I think he froze Hydro-Man into ice as well
That's kinda their hook. They basically exist as a way for you to ask "how the FUCK is Spider-Man supposed to deal with this?!" when you see them on the cover. They prey on your curiosity, betting you'd buy an issue to find out.
Exploring Sandman more as blue collar hero would have done more.
The dork writers hate blue collar dudes for some reason.
I guess we'll never know
I’m honestly shocked Sand has never been on the Thunderbolts, feels like the perfect team for him
Ironically he fought them once
Character development and growth are allowed in 6160. I hope we get a scene like pic related. Some OP villians shows up and mogs Peter. Villain hits MJ and threatens May. Peter unlocks his full power and STR mogs the bad guy in a berserker rage. Fuck the fags who were against this. THESE FAGGOTS ARE TO BLAME FOR WHY ASM IS IN A SHIT STATE. THESE FAGS ARE TO BLAME FOR OMD.
I really love Ditko's drawings
reflexes and agility that's good enough to dodge lightning and light based attacks
pre-cog that's so good he can fight with his eyes closed
high IQ
You may not know HOW Spidey's gonna beat these guys, but you know that Spidey CAN beat them.
It's probably the only change Byrne did that sort-of stuck,
Wasn't he one of the guys who pushed to bring back Aunt May, too?
What Byrne did to Scarlet Witch and Vision still hasn't been fixed, it might finally happen this year, but Marvel will probably find a way to still not do it.
A lot of Byrne's changes at DC stuck too.
That's what I thought was funny about it, Raimi Sandman actually has a reason to be sympathetic AND be on the FBI's Most Wanted List... and it was probably seen by more people than the number of people who read Byrne era Spider-Man or Quesada-era Sandman stories
People underestimate Peter
Wasn't he one of the guys who pushed to bring back Aunt May, too?
Shit, that's right, I forgot about that. He was the one who put in the actress retcon.
What Byrne did to Scarlet Witch and Vision still hasn't been fixed, it might finally happen this year, but Marvel will probably find a way to still not do it.
Arguably, they were in a better position before Bendis started writing Avengers. But yeah even afterwards there's no effort to sincerely fix things that Bendis wrecked. Just low effort fixes
Wasn't it actually because of his hair style?
Maybe a miniseries, but not an ongoing
No that was a separate thing, Byrne made him related to Osborn because of the hair
Byrne did so much damage to Spider-Man with his not muh crap. He shouldn't have brought back Aunt May either
That's dumb
Sandman was just a hood. Him becoming a good guy works. Suddenly everyone having Magneto over for dinner and pretending he's a good guy doesn't.
Who would ein between Sandman and Plastic Man?
I get that, and I do agree not every villain is redeemable and that they shouldn’t be. Although, Magneto probably isn’t the best example given he’s constantly tried going straight for decades now, it’s one of the hallmarks of his character
Those characters are just toys for the writer to play. Why someone should put a toy out the box and don't let future writers to play with it. That is just entitlement. Byrne only mistake was making a shitty overall Spider-man run. Not returning Sandman to the previous status quo.
This is the exact kind of thinking that brought us OMD/BND.
Cope, the problem is not that Peter is a bachelor again but that most writers simply did shit with the status quo.
c-cope
Making your shit opinion worthless immediately, good job.
hurr durr destroying decades of character development is good
why are comics shit
You're a special kind of retard, kill yourself.
It’d be like making Abner Beetle again, even though Janice is right there
His 1980s Beetle costume is still the best costume he ever had, and anyone who genuinely wants to see more of Tombstone's kid after Wells' ASM run is probably insane. I'm not arguing that he needs to be a villain again, just that he deserves to have his own identity and best costume back again. If you want to keep Janice around, have her get a new identity.
I think Abner's fine being MACH, though I wouldn’t mind them taking more influence from his 80s design. I intentionally didn’t read Wells's run, what did Janice do?
NTA, but I kinda agree with or without Wells. I think female legacy villains are lame,
I would rather them make another evil male Beetle.
It makes sense why he would at least give up crime. Why rob banks when you have all that power? He doesn’t even need to eat food, right? At that point maybe you start fighting criminals because it causes people to like you. Sandman seemed like a guy who wanted respect more than wealth or power, he just chose poor means to get it.
In 1979 Byrne was one of the main people responsible for retconning Quicksilver and Magneto into being related because they both had white hair, and not getting that Magneto had white hair because he was just old. If only there was an online community back then to mock it out of canon the same as happened when he tried it with Norman and Sandman.
I always forget that the twins weren’t always Magneto's. I actually do prefer it though, it’s more interesting than them being the kids of the Whizzer or a lineage of Scarlet Witches
Although, Magneto probably isn’t the best example given he’s constantly tried going straight for decades now, it’s one of the hallmarks of his character
It's more like one of the hallmarks of his character since the 80s has been periodically flipping from good to bad like a pro wrestler. Even the people who just want to pretend nothing Magneto did in the 60s and 70s counts can't look past his return to villainy in the 90s where he killed millions, no heroes should be pretending he's redeemable after that.
Why was it hair that kept inspiring these retcons? Why not something like similarity in powers or personality, why was it hair?
That being said, I don’t hate the idea of Norman being related to lower level criminals. I feel like you could get some stories out of that.
I guess I should have rephrased my original post better. He’s constantly “struggled” going straight for decades now, he’s obviously done some terrible things during that time
Magneto’s best ending was Wolverine decapitating him.
Using Wells mangling as an example of a character is mental considering Janice is a pretty great character in her other appearances.
Not if you're a fan of either of them and have to keep seeing them get written terribly by writers simping for Magneto. Sometimes one or both twins gets turned crazy so they can maintain a state of hostility with Magneto, but they're the one in the wrong, not him, sometimes, like now, they just forget they've always hated him because there's a retarded "Magneto Family" fandom that wants to ignore decades of characterization and have these characters behave like a happy family.
The twins were better off with their parents being irrelevant normies like in the movies, not being tied to a character that's treated as more important, and constantly having changes imposed on them depending on whatever Marvel is doing with him.
Sorry, anon, but if I ever see Tombstone or his kid again after that run, it'll be too soon. Sometimes one run can just overuse characters so much you never want to see them again. And even if you like her, she'd be the same character you like even if the original Beetle took the name back and she had to get a new villain name.
I kind of like the drama between the twins and Magneto that arises because he’s their father. I do hate that they screw over Wanda and Pietro whenever Marvel does something with Magneto, but I blame that more on the writers inability to not get Wanda and Pietro involved with whatever Erik is doing
It’s fine not wanting an overused character to not show up for a while afterwards, but it’s a bit silly to want them to completely abandon their current identity because of a bad run
Maybe she could theme herself after a specific beetle perhaps or something. Also that's fair enough suppose but it's odd since Tombstone and Beetle are great any other time, suppose it's like how Hopeless managed to singlehandedly make Arcade unbearable and unusable, luckily most of the villains I like haven't had that happen....well they've been fucked over by writers but not the hate on sight extent.
I kind of like the drama between the twins and Magneto that arises because he’s their father.
Even that is forced drama though. He didn't raise them, they didn't meet him until they were teenagers, and spent a few months being forced to join his terrorist group. The original resolution to him showing up years later and claiming to be the twins' dad was them telling him they didn't care, they couldn't forgive him and that he should leave them alone. Everything after that has been forced, contrived drama by writers pretending they'd want to have anything to do with him at all. Even the later stories where Pietro just wanted to finally kick Magneto's ass never really required them to be related, they just required their 1960s history to have happened, and Marvel would never let Pietro get a win over him anyway.
It's more that I just want Abner back in his best costume and identity, and never really wanted another Beetle in the first place, and have no real attachment to the sixth person to use the name. And Wells just made me not want to see her, or her dad again. But if she isn't going anywhere, this guy's idea of naming her after a specific type of beetle could work.
Maybe she could theme herself after a specific beetle perhaps or something.
knows about dung beetles but too dumb to just use the name 'Scarab' instead
Well, if Beetle is available, you might as well use it
This is the same stupid-ass excuses company people have made since at least the 00s, and at this point I'm no longer believing it since all these creatives were allowed to think of it as toys to break or put in the toybox, and it just resulted in decades of substandard work.