Kek

kek

Honestly how have studios not learned that their propaganda masquerading as movies isn't fucking working?

Okay cool I'll save my money

Gender Politics

Toxic masculinity and gender wage gap whining, or did Sue used to have a schlong?

This reads like corporate speak for

we didn't know how to give Sue actual character so we're rehashing basic bitch fake politics

he thinks it's about making movies succeed

It's to distract you from the tarrifs

I find her to be very unappealing.

That's pretty much been true of female characters for what feels like a decade now. Instead of writing a character with strengths and flaws, it's

what if she stood up against the patriarchy and showed how strong she really was?

Like this mindset is what crashed the Star Wars sequels. We were all led to believe that Finn was an ex-stormtrooper and Poe was a pilot, but they're just comedic relief to the REAL main character, strong woman protagonist who does all the awesome things and no you silly boys don't get to do anything.

Either way it doesn't bode well.

It's going to be

society expects X from woman, but Sue proves them wrong by doing Y!

She's fierce, she's sassy, and she doesn't take any mansplaining from Galactus.

Over a decade of pavlovian conditioning mixed with sensationalism in media via click bait was gonna have this effect, anon.

Don’t bother arguing with these people, anon, they clearly don’t care about anything from the comics and just want brownie points for trying to complain about something being “woke”

When you read the article you see none of it deals with politics, it's all in regards to characterization. But you know, the only measurement grifters have is "can I jerk off to the woman on screen or not" so they won't even bother to read a paragraph.

It’s like they’re trying to make this movie fail

I read all of Stan's run inculding the issues after Kirby left. That was all for her character-wise. She chose Reed, got married, got pregnant. Found a babysitter in witch Agatha.

Hello, reddit!

<vanessa kirby
IS SHE THE DAUGHTER OF JACK KIRBY? IS THAT WHY THEY PUT HER IN THE MOVIE??

Yeah, none of her arcs revolved around her insecurities and the pressure of of balancing motherhood and her life on the team. No part time spy job, no handling of FF Inc. , not even the arc of becoming the Invisible WOMAN at all.
Nope, her entire character is reduced to a love triangle, definitely.

Fun fact, for her role as Sue Storm, Vanessa Kirby will be the first person named Kirby to be properly compensated for her work on FF

I'm talking solely about the original Stan Lee run from 1961-1972. Anything after that is authorized fan fiction.

between this and the johnny storm thing I think this movie is going to be too apologetic for its own good.

there will never be a good live action F4 movie

never ever

Well most people don't think like that so you're logic doesn't really apply to this discussion.

She was the one holding the team together as they all had their tantrums

yeah Ben was especially bad in those days. straight up wrecked the place and would leave in a huff.

That line of tgought is the equivalent of geewunners in the TF fandom, and I guess most fanbases have those

This entire line of discussion started with

I assume they're mostly making a nod to the era in which the film takes place. 1960s saw the rise of Women's Lib. Not that I expect American's to know history.

The way she was written after the 60s does not apply to how she actually was written in the 60s.
In other words, the team mother, yes. Not a liberated woman.

This movie was in production before that shit, dude. This is what made the initial picks for the F4 walk. Feige and his posse of dykes are dipshits who need dire consequences to actually learn anything.

We were all led to believe that Finn was an ex-stormtrooper and Poe was a pilot, but they're just comedic relief to the REAL main character, strong woman protagonist who does all the awesome things and no you silly boys don't get to do anything.

So why was it okay to make the black man into a subservient clown for the WHITE woman?

Thats a man

Gotta appeal to that chinese audience

Look, hon. Nobody wants to be preached about identity politics in a fucking superhero movie. Get outta here with that nonsense.

article tl;dr
She thinks Malice is badass and that early Sue was a generic 60s housewife. That's the exploration.

can I jerk off to the woman on screen or not

Men like women. More news at 11.

She thinks Malice is badass

I guess in the way she knocked everyone around but Reed just not putting up with her shit and slapping her out of it was just funny.

You'd expect that from fratbros, not from people who supposedly try to engage with art on a non-superficial level.
Altough most "reviewers" ala critical drinker do show that they barely even try to understand what their watching

Because every "woke" product so far has been top notch quality and fully respectful of the source, right?

Malice can be a more controversial topic, but yeah Sue was the less developed and most boring member of the team during the OG run. It wasn't until Byrne where she came into her own as a character.

no one ever bothers to actually read it

Its the journalists and editors job to make the headline make you read the rest of the article.

film is about super heroes including women with extraordinary powers beyond mundane humans

set in a period when women are fighting for equal rights

can't handle the overlap between the two

Tell us you're a sensitive little snowflake without telling us you're a sensitive little snowflake.

I wasn’t even saying that, I was saying that people will rush to call something “woke” because it has something they don’t like in it and they want the attention calling something “woke” gives them.

The problem is, people react to any resemblance of politics or social issue in a blockbuster film with fear due to the horrid writing we were subjected to during the past decade, and the fact that the world is more polarized than ever. There's nothing intrinsically "woke" about a woman in a position of power since we've seen that throught decades of film, but it all narrows down to how you present it. If you have the female character constantly humilliating men and demeaning them, then yeah is obnoxious and people will naturally turn away from it.

Take the OG Star Wars for example, a film about literally fighting fascism (btw anyone who complains about politics in SW is full of shiit since it's been an integral part since day one). People didn't mind back then since the irl political climate wasn't as fucked, and the film didn't hammer it into your head.

Journalism absolutely plays a part. The original EW article about the film is exactly that, an in-depth report about the movie with interviews with the actors and director. The controversy comes down to like four paragraphs, but secondary sources will pick the ones with words which cause most discussion to engage more clicks.

It's all about the algorithm.

Such art has been recently bombarded with unattractive people. Superheroes are meant to be powerful and beautiful. They're aspirational. There is nothing attractive about Pascal portrayal. He looks like he hasn't taken a shower in days.

You dare choose how you spend your own money and time? Fuck you, you s-snowflake!

Warning signs are already there that this is going to be one of those girlboss films. Especially if they're going to tone down Johnny into a wimp. The whole dynamic of the four was that Johnny was the playboy one that Ben was jealous about and Sue had to keep his recklessness in check. If Sue becomes the team leader and Johnny is a little background cuck in the corner, then the entire chemistry between the team is gone for good.

You'd expect that from fratbros, not from people who supposedly try to engage with art on a non-superficial level.

Its a fucking superhero movie, not the next King's Speech or Oppenheimer. Women claim to be more sophisticated but then fiction aimed at them is full of shirtless chest bad boys.

You'd expect that from fratbros

Most men like women, hun.

not from people who supposedly try to engage with art on a non-superficial level.

The majority of people who watch this shit do it to chill back and be entertained for a couple of hours.

There's far more tom Johnny than the womanizer. I agree they shouldn't left that part out, but it's not all the character comes down to.

set in a period when women are fighting for equal rights

The comics weren't about that though.

not from people who supposedly try to engage with art on a non-superficial level.

You can do this while also having attractive characters, they are not mutually exclusive

Beauty (a subjective measure) shouldn't be correlated with ethics. Ben's the proof of that.

Women claim to be more sophisticated

For looks. All for their image. It's bullshit, and they're afraid that if they admit to what they really want, it'll make them look shallow.

But this product is gonna be woke. They're saying it upfront.

Yeah, but most of the discourse limits itself to complaining about the actors not being attractive enough, and almost none delves into some other aspect of the characters or the film. There's this controversy around Sue and Johnny, but months before that you had people
writing the film off due to the actors' looks.

I agree they shouldn't left that part out, but it's not all the character comes down to.

Yeah but that character flaw has to be there, because taking it out also takes away from Ben and Sue as characters. Johnny being a celebrity who rolls in pussy is a constant reminder for Ben that he's a weird monster nobody will fuck and he struggles to sit in chairs without breaking them by accident. And Sue is the sibling who keeps Johnny's excesses in check and keeps him from becoming a complete asshole.

So we should limit the scope of a film in relation to it's genre? Isn't that what we've been fighting against?

Does anyone believe this movie's gonna do well?

Kevin Feige had only one job, hire Sarah Gadon and make her look hot in every scene but no one here is an idiot to believe he would do that

Ok, I still never said that it wouldn’t be or that it would be good. All I said was that people who get mad at articles like this tend to not read the comics.

Why do you want cape flicks to be lame boring crap for snobs?

So we should limit the scope of a film in relation to it's genre?

If you're a Hollywood director in charge of making summer busters that attract general populace to the theaters, yes. If you have a burger restaurant the worst fucking thing you can do is to try and reinvent the burger. Nobody likes avant-garde shit if its force-fed to them.

Lol, nah, it's the exact sort of political grand standing and fart sniffing self importance we all know it it. You can bitch and moan all you like, but we've seen this exact same song and dance for over a decade now, we know how it all goes. We also know the parts of your faggoty little back up singers, shifting the goals and trying to obfuscate things with basic bitch sophistry. Your acts been out of date for years now, but you're incapable of adapting to the change. All those years doing it for free and you didn't change anything, how's it feel fag boy?

All I said was that people who get mad at articles like this tend to not read the comics

Why should they? Its an article about a movie.

Why do you want them to be boring action movies for frat bros.

Yeah I agree, and I don't think we should eliminate certain topics form on-screen depiction due to sensitivity. That said, there's still stuff they can do with Johnny, specially exploring the reasons behind his bravado attitude. Either way the film is mostly focused on Sue and Reed so there's that.

yfw Superman oversells the F4

Because fuck normies that's why

I’m honestly fine with either outselling the other, they both seem somewhat cool looking.

Either way the film is mostly focused on Sue and Reed so there's that.

The film is called Fantastic Four, not Fantastic Duo.

Fuck I don't, I don't want them to be treated as a disposible genre either. That's the difference between art and content.

One part has inevitably gets more focus. Ben had the most development in the '05 film, Rocket takes central stage in GotG 3, and it still doesn't devaluate the other characters. Hopefully they give them all something to do and shine for, even if the emotional core lends in one charcater.

Yeah, but Reed and Sue are the parental team members so it makes sense to see their reactions to their “family”. I’m positive Johnny and Ben are still going to get a decent amount of focus as well.

The advertising about Johnny being "more responsible" suggests he's going to be pushed on the sidelines to be a good little "Yes ma'am" cuck in the background.

Why do you want them to be boring action movies for frat bros.

Do you even go outside? Interact with people IN PERSON? Most people like action movies. They're as mainstream as you can get film-wise.

they both seem somewhat cool looking.

Bro, you're a dork. Don't even.

Why is it so hard for there to be a good FF movie?

People simply don't understand what woke means. It means to be aware of the social imbalances we face now and how we should face them and confront them under a Marxist perspective. Pascal casting is woke. He's allegedly not white, so he deserves the role as too many white men had them before.

Yeah, but Sue would be like most women in the 60s, the women's liberation movement, yada yada

That movement was woke from inception. It's part of the fundamental beliefs of the current left that women needed that movement, and see how good it's been for society. With that said, you can say that all comics are then woke as well, which it bears some truth, but there was a difference between women then just doing what the male counterparts did (most of the female characters of the time did this) and they currently talking about how bad things were in the past for women despite we already had strong female heroes for the past 60 years or so.

Gee, I’m sorry for being a dork that reads comic books and is excited for some comic book movies.
It’s just a really hard comic to condense down into a movie and still get all of the dynamics across. It’s why their cartoons tend to fair a bit better

Because Fantastic Four comics are basically Star Trek but with superpowers and supervillains. While the movies try to turn them into generic superheroes.

Because they're a family and most of Hollywood hates that.

Because when the OG (Roger's) is a 10/10, any attempts to dethrone it will rightfully be shit

Tbdesu using woke for past content is stupid imo, even in instances like the BK kids club or captain planet for the same reason as caling hunter/gatherer tribes commies or any society that looked after itself and extensively demonized "others" as nazis. especially since there are already terms for all said groups, people just want to stay mad and conflate everything they hate

For some reason hollywood simply cannot take the Kirbypill. See The Eternals, Thor, etc

This is how you get Fast & Furious

This iteration of the character is from the fuckin 1960s, of course her gender's going to come up. Heavily entrenched sexism running headlong into a burgeoning wave of feminism.

The King was just too big for Hollywood peasantry.

As someone reading the comic right now it's practically impossible to adapt to live action and condense down into a simple 1hr 1/2 movie.
Basically what and have said.
Not even half the shit they go through would fly in live action.

"Anti-woke" is the "anti-Communist" of the 21st century.

It’s cause his designs tend to be hard to adapt in live action in the Hollywood style. I know studios have struggled to make Kirby dots in 3D because they are normally in a 2D space.

No, they didn’t,

Except McCarthyism was valid because there were actual commies in Hollywood spreading their shit everywhere.

Foid rights were rejected at the ballot box.

the USA is forever stuck in the 1950s

I don't recognize Top Middle and Middle Right.

It’s cause, good or bad, that’s when the US was at its best economically because of the post-War economic boom

Saying things doesn’t make it true.

wasn't gonna watch it anyway

From the Lee Kirby/Kirby run all I can remember was the letter issue where Reed defends her against fans' complaints. After that was the separation arc that directly dealt with her feeling underaprecciated by Reed due to her role as a mother. And that's the pre-Byrne stuff.

Its not that complicated, Anon. Stop with the girlboss women, brown people and subverting whites if you want your primary audience back, which was always going to be young and middle age white men looking for an escapist bit of media after a long week of busting their asses.

Everything else is secondary to that. If its meant to appeal to, accomplish, or tick any boxes other than that exact premise, it goes in the woke pile regardless of semantics.

Her hair is too light

Why did they do Finn like that?
Like you'd think modern politics would have prevented this and let him actually be a parallel hero, like early marketing suggested.

she has a penis but makes it invisible
it's hanging out of her suit at all times so that you don't see a bulge

Early days she was more on the platinum blonde side. They've never kept the color consistent beyond that.

Because of China

Wouldn't China unironically rather he just not be included?

Of course DChuds would consider beating the jobber MCU franchise a massive W

It’s cause China doesn’t like black people and that was Hollywood's main demographic at the time. It’s why they had to edit posters to downplay black actors there (sorry for the low quality, it’s the best I could find).

Probably, but they don’t have full control over the movie, just within their censorship rules, which doesn’t ban black actors from being in movies.

source: some neckbeard wearing a MAGA hat

ok

You mean like they did in the 60s? When Stan started writing little notes to tell the readers to shut the fuck up about her?

Feels like so many films do this these days that you would subvert expectations by just playing the film straight.

It's unironically because of Rian Johnson. You could easily read him in TFA as him getting a handle on things and learning to take himself more seriously. But then the next movie makes him this goofy oaf who's only good enough for a pointless B plot where a free woman explains to him, a literal soldier enslaved since childhood, can't understand how hard farm hands have it. Then The Rise of Skywalker just ran with that depiction.

Its insane this is a controversial thing to say here now. The amount of times Sue saves the team because the villain just doesn't consider her a threat to take seriously, specifically because shes a woman gets kind of comical. A lot of Sue in those early years is her constantly trying to make a case for her capability on the team while the men (especially Ben and Reed) keep talking about wishing she'd sit things out. But of course Anon Babble does not read comics.

Where do you draw the line then. Go back to the 60's-70's, and you get Stan's soapboxes and other issues being dealt with. An FF number of this era has Johnny and Ben help a captured T'Challa fight an apertheid like country, in a time where the Civil Rights movement was still recent. Do you label it as woke still?

some fatass wearing a size XXXL White Dudes for Harris shirt

ok

So anyway heres the time the fantastic four fought Hitler in a klan hood stoking civil unrest in America by ranting about immigrants and foreigners.

white Karen explains to black slave that he needs to check his privilege

Keep politics out of muh comics tho

Get a load of this wokery

Lee was a middle-of-the-road 60s Democrat, 20s Democrats veered so far out of bounds of what most normies believe. Back in the day you had far left academics fuming at him because he wrote commies as bad guys. Now those guys are the party.

They made Silver Surfer a woman.
Obviously there will be a scene where Sue convinces Shalla-Bal that she doesn't need to follow the will of some big man in a stupid hat and then the two combine their powers to beat up Galactus, and they call their combo attack "The Ultimate Nullifier".
This is after Johnny and Ben fail to be any kind of effective and Reed sits there useless without stretchy powers.

Because the studios are filled with Twitter-hired ideologues who refuse to believe it. They want to believe the only reason it hasn't worked is because there are armies of evil chuds keep sabotaging their efforts. They refuse to believe that 99% of the general public is turned off by ideological preaching.

I can't believe a 1960s comics code funnybook made commies the villains truly this is unprecedented and means stan lee was the average Anon Babblester of his day

Cry about it tourist. You will always be alienated and estranged from things you pretend to care about.

wtf is that

Cry about it tourist. You will always be alienated and estranged from things you pretend to care about.

By today's standards, yes.

We [Cockrum and Stan Lee] went round and round about Ms. Marvel's costume, too. Remember she started with a female version of Captain Marvel's costume only with an open belly, and we all bitched about that because none of us could figure a rationale for it. So they closed the belly opening, but we said, 'No, she needs another costume.' We hassled Stan about it for so long that he said, 'All right! If you think you're so smart, design a new one.' And I must have gone through 50 designs! Some of 'em I would xerox and try out in different colors, and Stan would go, 'No, no, no, no! Get that out of here." Finally I did the one with the lightning bolt and sash, and I took it to Stan who said, 'That's what you should have done from the start! That's what I like: Shiny leather and tits & ass!"

Huh.
You know, maybe Jews aren't so bad.

Something something girl in STEM something something male dominated workplace something something have to work twice as hard to prove my worth something something i'm just as smart as the boys.

An actually surprising approach would be if Sue being pregnant made her feel conflicted because she feels like she HAS to be a girl-in-STEM inspiration but really just wants to settle down with her family and have a kid.

'That's what you should have done from the start! That's what I like: Shiny leather and tits & ass!"

lol why are old shits so openly horny