one of the biggest character downgrades in a series full of them
One of the biggest character downgrades in a series full of them
The more time has passed the more I realize I don't actually like The Clone Wars. All the good stuff it does has only proved to go on and result in bad things later for Star Wars.
This design came from the Old Wounds story from the Visionaries book which was made up of unused concepts intended for Ep 3. Grievous was originally going to be a Cyborg Maul, but Lucas wanted something else so they scrapped it until revisting the idea in TCW.
the problem with Maul is retconning his backstory from simple Iridonian Zabrak to Dathomirian Nightbrother reduces him from a diamond-in-the-rough prodigy to a manufactured product of selective breeding, and changing his Sith tattoos into Nightbrother clan sigils takes what should be a symbol of his personal dedication to Sith ideology and turns it into a mere slave brand. The writers of TCW were clearly attempting to give Maul's character depth and significance, but what they achieved was the opposite, reducing him to a self-important tool in the hands of a lesser villain.
reducing him to a self-important tool in the hands of a lesser villain.
Sidious isn't a lesser villain.
the nightsisters are
Mother Talzin you mean.
The numerous and arbitrary retcons of TCW took what was previously one of the most tightly plotted and internally consistent timeframes within the Expanded Universe, where every event and storyline was given an exact date down to the week, and reduced it to a muddled sliding scale continuity defined by simplistic and contrived plotlines centered around a childish moral.
Where the original Clone Wars microseries kept its portrayal of Anakin Skywalker consistent with the films while also going a long way towards salvaging that version of the character, TCW reduced Anakin to a bland heroic charicature, with only the most token lipservice paid to his emerging Dark Side tendancies, and he was otherwise almost completely sidelined in favor of Ahsoka Tano.
pretty much yeah
As for General Grievous, his portrayal remains consistent with the films in the worst possible way, continuing his downward spiral into ineffectual slapstick villainy. Even the episodes where he is meant to be taken seriously reduce him to fleeing for his life or play his dismemberments for laughs.
Let's not forget that this was the beginning of unleashing Filoni on Star Wars, which has proven to be a total disaster.
Also: they didn't recanonize KOTOR when they had the chance. Fuckers couldn't even do THAT right.
The fact that Filoni feels this way about Grievous makes him seem more alien to me than most of the actual aliens in Star Wars. Cannot relate to the guy. Don't really trust any of his input as a result.
TCW reduced Anakin to a bland heroic charicature, with only the most token lipservice paid to his emerging Dark Side tendancies
Because Eps 2 and 3 were him at his worst, while the war was him at his best. Dude was in his element. He thrived in it. Bro might've been a shit Jedi, but he was a born warrior.
I can roll with most of Maul's return but instantly hate it once I see the witches creating those legs through traditional fantasy type magic. Magic that isn't a natural extension of force stuff is always shit in star wars. Sucks because a group of force sensitive witches that butt heads with the sith is a kino concept
GEORGE feels this way about Grievous
Let's not pretend the EU timeline was perfect. Vol 2 of the micro-series contradicted Anakin's knighting being 2.5 years into the war by presenting it happening 4 months into it. This is in line with how TCW had it. The CW03 guys even planned on adapting the Obsession comic to give closure to Durge sneaking away after Obi-Wan beat him, meaning even they didn't consider the comic canon. This also means Ventress' return would've been picking up from her defeat by Anakin in the cartoon, not the comic.
they didn't recanonize KOTOR when they had the chance.
They tried. youtu.be
No, that's the point. They didn't try hard enough, they didn't push for Revan to be in hard enough.
Ventress
oh boy ventress. Ventress in "Legends" was effectively Dooku's pet serial killer, a deeply disturbed individual who would've been a natural fit for NBC's Hannibal. By contrast, Ventress in "Canon" was a weak pantomime villain jumping from one parental substitute to the next, spending most of her run as a disposable lackey to whichever master she happened to be serving, and when she finally did step up and start calling her own shots, she got herself horrifically murdered. In essense, the writers of TCW got Ventress' character ass-backwards, stripped her of her iconic weapons, stripped her of her iconic appearance, then killed her off in a crappy harlequin romance novel.
George ain't here anymore.
Ventress will never be cooler than her fight with Anakin in Genndy Wars.
Fact. Character peeked immediately.
That’s cause killing him in the film was a fucking missed opportunity and they didn’t know what to do they just wanted him back.
Just make a prequel.
This post makes me think that clone wars should've been more of a general anthology after like 2 seasons of clone shit
Maul isn't in TPM to be a "character," he's in it to be a force of nature. He's there as the incarnation of everything the Jedi have just flat-out missed. He's a big, dramatic wake-up call to them that the Sith are back, that the galaxy is in danger, and they're not nearly as in control of things as they think they are.
The prequels don't do EVERYTHING wrong. Some elements of storytelling they absolutely nail. Maul in TPM is one of them, he didn't NEED to be brought back.
Nerds need to learn to just appreciate thinly written but cool characters
How is that a downgrade?
The character was shit, and barely a character, and now uts8shit and barely a character, but with robo legs.
see
You know maybe the moral of the story here is that it was just a bad idea to let the nerds get their hands on Star Wars.
I mean, Lucas himself is not a nerd, and never has been. Lucas was actually kind of a Chad, back in the day. Lawrence Kasdan isn't a nerd. Harrison Ford isn't a nerd. Alec Guiness isn't a nerd. A lot of not-nerds shaped the direction of the OT back in the day, and maybe you can argue that swapping them out for nerds--letting the nerds get their hands on Star Wars--has proved to be a bad idea.
maybe you can argue that swapping them out for nerds--letting the nerds get their hands on Star Wars--has proved to be a bad idea.
With how they autistically cram references to all this other shit in their books and call it the greatest thing ever, yeah I'd say so.
Maybe I should've said fanboy because you're right Lucas is a Chad but it's takes a little nerdiness to think that mixing Flash Gordon with Kurosawa would make a good movie
What said is meaningless because it's not in the movie, and not even in episodes II or III.
DM is not a character. He doesn't have lines, we don't know what he is doing or what his motivation is.
tries to reclaim Star Wars from the nerds
APOLOGIZE
movie purists are retarded
movie purists
What does that even mean?
Star Wars is a series of movies. Do I have to explain that to you?
I'm sorry, Rian Johnson. SORRY YOU'RE SUCH A JERK.
Better a jerk than a nerd.
CW Maul is good. The idea of an attack dog that gets tired of being an attack dog and becomes a villain mastermind is a rarely done thing in media but it's so fun and Maul is by far the most fun SW villain since darth vader.
The only bad thing about post TPM Maul is that they decided to turn him back into an obi wan obsessed gremlin for Rebels for literally no reason. His death sucks so much ass.
Refusing to engage with the EU for no good reason is retraded
for no good reason
Who said I don't have a good reason? Where did you get the idea that I dont have a good reason?
In fact, what exactly do you think my reason to not engage with the EU even is?
Also, in a very cool way, your post proves my entire argument, even if you don't notice it.
implying there is any reason at all to engage with glorified fanfiction separate from the original creator
glorified fanfiction
Now un-glorified.
And even if Lucas wrote them, books are still extra material and not movies.
because you certainly don't
the directors original vision was shit as evidenced by the prequels before eu content at least tried to salvage aspects of it and then disney someow one upped it in being shit so now not even the eu can be good anymore
you certainly don't
OK, then tell me what my reason to not consume EU material is, since you know what it is, and then tell me why that reason is bad.
Shut the fuck up fag
see
The idea of an attack dog that gets tired of being an attack dog and becomes a villain mastermind
That's a fantastic idea!
But it's not in the movies. Also, the mere idea is not good unless developed.
Nerdy stuff is...lebad guys! XD
We should...give up nerdy things and embrace jocksportsball and booze like le normies XDD
Nerdy stuff is...lebad guys! XD
No one said that. At least I didn't.
In fact, if you wanna argue "nerdy vs normie", my complaint is nerdier: DM is a non-character that lacks development.
What could be "nerdier" than this statement?
Why should I care if it's in the movies or not? why does that arbitrarily make ideas more valid or not?
Why should I care if it's in the movies or not
Because it's a series of movies.
Also, DM was introduced in a movie, and killed off in that same movie, and didn't have a single line. A weak character.
Now, your argument is "he is cool if you read the material that fixes that weakness", and by doing that you admit to the weakness. That, and also you're giving us no reason to go and consume the EU products, other than to fix what the movie needs fixed. Again, this is you accepting that DM is shit.
if you go outside of the narrative confines of the movie, where DM is a non character, and consume a COMOLETELY DIFFERENT NARRATIVE WHICH IS NOT EVEN IN THE SAME TYPE OF MEDIA, that fixes the movie, guys!
You're a sucker and a coomsumer.
I don't care. The EU was a key part of what allowed Star Wars to keep being relevant and interesting well beyond the movies none of your arguments are valid
SW sold out to every other media form as soon as it hit theaters. It was never intended to be some film only media experience. Stop pretending it ever was.
The EU was a key part of what allowed Star Wars to keep being relevant and interesting well beyond the movies
Meanwhile, in reality:
Star Wars merchandise had generated an estimated $100 million in toy sales alone between 1977 and 1978
Sure buddy! It was the EU what kept the IP relevant! It wasn't the mone at all! The thing wasn't a merchandise empire!
Look, you haven't given us a reason to coomsume EU products other than "they fix DM as a character", proving that even you know the movie fails as making him a complete character and a thing that doesn't need fixing. Then the argument becomes circular:
DM os not shitty as a character in the movie!
Why?
Because an books fixed him!
So he needed fixing?
No he didn't needed fixing! But the book fixed him!
And why should I care about a narrative outside of the movie?
Because it fixed DM!
So I should read the book to see the character done right?
Yes
So it wasn't done right in the movie?
... read the book!
So I can see a shitty character become less shitty? My whole point was to say that DM is a non-character in the movie, and I know you don't disagree.
The books matter!
Even if they did (and they don't, they're non canon) they would always matter less than the movies.
But OK, I’m open minded. I can be persuaded. Tell me why should I read the books.
They fix DM!
It was never intended to be some film only media experience
But the movies are what matter, because all other material depends on the movies existing. Without the EU, there would still be movies. Without the movies, there would not be an EU.
Anyone wish maul had stayed a crime lord?
Refusing to engage with the EU for no good reason is retraded
Not everyone's a turbonerd like you, bro.
The funny thing is, he is acting as if reading EU books is the default. As if those who don't read them have the burden of coming up with a reason not to.
When it's exactly the other way around: if you're gonna consume a product, you are the one who needs a reason.
And notice that he doesn't offer one.
That was Lucas' idea for the ST.
none of your arguments are valid
Giving him depth and significance
By making him an entire faction complete with a muscle-bound henchman to order around, even when it doesn't make any sense if you think about it for more than half a second
This was a licensing choice and nothing else. It's actively sacrificing character significance and tying them into the Nightsisters makes the universe smaller as a bonus, all for the ability to throw around mini-mauls a protagonist like Cal Kestus can carve his way through. God, fuck it's so stupid.
(Post deleted and re-posted for spelling errors).
For real?
I can prove that my argument makes sense, with just some questions:
1, Why should people read the EU books?
2, Even if we agree that both the books and the movies matter, which matters more?
3, Could there be an EU without the movies?
4, Could there be novies without the EU? Which depends on which?
And the support of my arguments is this: you will not answer any of these questions. You will refuse. You will, however, reply to this post. Just, not with answers.
You will pretend that you're not answering the questions because they're dumb questions, but in reality you won't answer them because you know I'm right.
You will mock me, call me names, fake laughter, because your ego and anger won't allow you to just ignore the post, so you will have to reply with something.
See my prediction come true. Your anger will glow brighter the more you deny it.
I opposed Maul's resurrection from the jump. He fufilled his narrative purpose, there's no reason for him to come back. The explanation for his survival was genuine nonsense on top of that. Like I can buy he survives the fall OR that he survived having legs cut off but both, for 10+ years? But Anakin gets burned alive and he can't do anything to heal that?
I can buy he survives the fall OR that he survived having legs cut off but both
He lost more than his legs, he was cut in half. No matter how you look at it, it's silly shit.
This site ain't for minors, kiddo.
Blame George for that. He likes his droids to be silly.
Kys retard
But he is a nerd. Just look at him.
reduces him from a diamond-in-the-rough prodigy to a manufactured product of selective breeding
Many such cases in fiction.
That is the tragedy of Darth Maul. He believed he was special, but was only a manufactured slave groomed to be a sith.
previously one of the most tightly plotted and internally consistent timeframes within the Expanded Universe, where every event and storyline was given an exact date down to the week,
LMAO
That's cool but man I would've preferred he didn't absorb the Mandalore storyline into himself.
He is literally a fucking nerd.
He's the annoying kid on the play ground that just goes around picking fights then whining to the teachers when someone hits.
1, Why should people read the EU books?
because they're enjoyable and dd more to the universe
2, Even if we agree that both the books and the movies matter, which matters more?
this is an attempt to assert a false dichotomy
3, Could there be an EU without the movies?
this question is designed as a trap in order to support said false dichototmy
4, Could there be novies without the EU? Which depends on which?
see above
Why do you autists always sound like robots?
Can't wait for the day when the last EUfag dies of old age. Online Star Wars discussion will improve tremendously when that happens.
Been out of the Star Wars loop for a bit, where is this frame of Ventress from??
this is an attempt to assert a false dichotomy
You don't know what a "false dichotomy" is, my dude. It's not a dichotomy, and it's not false if there's an objectively correct answer. See:
Could there be novies without the EU?
The answer is yes.
Which depends on which?
The answer is, the existence of the EU depends on the existence of the novies.
There's no other way to answer those questions while being sane or honest.
Whatever reason you have is automatically invalid because you want a sterile homogenized shart wars to feed you garbage like midi-chlorians and never do anything in the vein of exotic pulpy fun
Yeah, the GOOD kind of nerd. A FILM nerd, not a 'muh lore' nerd.
Stop being a retard
this is an attempt to assert a false dichotomy
The question is generous enough to give you the chance of aeguing that both the moviesand the EU matter
Even if we agree that both the books and the movies matter, which matters more?
You're fuckin retarded, EUfag.
while the war was him at his best. Dude was in his element. He thrived in it. Bro might've been a shit Jedi, but he was a born warrior.
And that's all fine, but the show doesn't really make that apparent. Most of the time he's always right and hardly immature like he's supposed to be. In fact, there are times the show will bend over backwards and sacrifice an arc's entire point just so Anakin never has to be portrayed as in the wrong. The old storiess handled it so much better.
Can't wait for the day when the last EUfag dies of old age.
Maybe he's actually very young, or even a child.
That would explain a couple of things, huh?
A FILM nerd
And yet somehow he fucked up the entire B plot of the movie. That's not the part he inherited from JJ's trash movie, either. The B-plot with the rebels was all "original", and he still fumbled it.
The only bad thing about post TPM Maul is that they decided to turn him back into an obi wan obsessed gremlin for Rebels for literally no reason
There was a reason. George originally intended him to be the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy. But when JJ was hired as the director for it's first installment he, at the insistence of Simon Pegg (who he took on as his creative consultant over George), scrapped all of George's outlines and concepts for what the ST was supposed to be. Lucasfilm had no more reason to keep Maul around since he was robbed of his intended final purpose so they decided to give him an ending.