Why do you hate Daniel Clowes?
Why do you hate Daniel Clowes?
I like cool shit, not soietic crybaby nonsense. Indie needs to have cooler shit like manga or more indulgent sexy stuff.
who
I feel that people like Clowes, Ware, Burns, Tomine, etc. think that the superhero genre absorbed all the action genre in the west. The problem with that is superhero comics haven't been very good at action either.
Eightball mogs whatever gay shit you like
There is absolutely nothing of interest this dysgenic libshit would have to say
You can tell by his frail, weak body that he's never done physical labor and thus has nothing of interest to contribute, just pseudo-intellectual masturbation.
He is a creature nourished entirely by an ecosystem that keeps his kind well fed and comfortable on a perch
This sort of man would be physically and mentally broken by a single day of labor, sneering at his physical superiors, judging them because he *thinks*!
I don't hate him anywhere near as he hates the world, he's a genuine misanthrope intellectual who's eternally pissed that he isn't as lauded as much as he thinks he should be.
In the 80's he was a credible underground/alternative creator but when the Ghost World movie didn't land as expected? He seemed to get even more pissy.
hurr durr manual labor
needs to have cooler shit like manga
Oh my god, shut up faggot. This feels like a lazy answer, but literally just read manga. American comics are different, manga isn't necessarily better. Stupid opinion
As bad as he is, the vast majority of the crap plaguing the board RIGHT NOW is a million times worse. Fuck me does the well go deep.
you watch childrens cartoons lol faggot you watch childrens cartoons you manchild lol ahahahaha
I quite like Clowes actually, Eightball was a very good read. I just started David Boring.
Yeah, he's alright.
We can't all be beautiful coal miners.
R. Kikuo Johnson describes the backdrop to this pretty well:
In many ways it feels like the entire history of what I'll broadly call "Art Comics" from the Undergrounds to the first generation of Fantagraphics cartoonists were making work in direct response to mainstream American genre comics. Crumb set out to subvert the values of the Comics Code, Maus played with the funny animal genre, and Ware satirized Superman in Acme Novelty. Comics got no respect, and Art Comics fought to justify their own existence in part by responding to the very narrow expectations of an adult population who largely saw comics as trash. Even as late as the early 2000s, when I was working on Night Fisher, I had a huge chip on my shoulder as I sanctimoniously set out to help prove that comics could be "art." Today, that debate has pretty much been settled, and cartoonists can make graphic novels that are much less burdened by the question, "why comics?"
Pretty much an entire generation (including the cartoonists you mention) were trying to push against a cultural bias against the medium, which didn't really break up entirely until the mid-2000s.
Well, that sucks. They still haven't overcome the stigma.
i hate him because he doesn't make retarded-ass capeshit jobber comics ugh more cartoonists need to make retarded-ass capeshit jobber comics or i'm gonna explode!!!
I like his work
I think comics have attained a sort of cultural legitimacy that didn't exist before. Particularly when it comes to finding comics at a library, you really had very few options in the 90s and earlier. Basically just collections of newspaper strips, and very few of even those. Now you can easily find a wide variety of material, including the genre comics from Marvel and DC from which so many indie cartoonists were trying to differentiate themselves.
If you're talking about widespread cultural acceptance though, then no. Even the biggest, most popular comics are nowhere near mainstream. The only reason a comic character becomes a household name is if it gets a popular TV or movie, and even then very few people are inspired to actually read the original comic. All comics are "alternative" media in the U.S.
All comics are "alternative" media in the U.S.
This. There shouldn't be so much fucking infighting because we're all in the same hole.
I don't. I admire that like David Lapham, he came up through Cracked Magazine and really made a name for himself. However, I don't think Lapham has done covers for the New Yorker.
I don't. I do think he clung too stubbornly to a forced grotesque misery persona/aesthetic that while avant-garde in the 80s has aged very poorly and he won't live to see it become popular again. Peter Bagge also comes to mind even though the actual styles aren't similar. Fantagraphics nurtured these people ensuring they never evolved.
Dan wants us to stare in wonder at closeups of ugly people as though they were intrinsically the same things as dramatic impact, and I start to understand why Ditko refused to open the door when he came to visit unannounced.
I genuinely feel sorry for Dan, Peter and everyone else who grabbed the brass ring early on but stayed stuck in that rut even as they grew older and the world's tastes moved on from first-wave irony.
Back in the day I was so tired of boring 2000s garbage from Marvel and DC. I stopped reading comics when the Ultimate line was coming out (but it was so good!) no it wasn't. The artwork was so sterile and the writing throwaway.
But then one day years later I went into a little comic shop in my town and the guy had Eightball #1 and The Atomics #1 on a spinning rack. The artwork caught my eye right away because it all looked hand made, not the kinda digital plastic airbrush shit you'd see in mainstream comics. Those two series got me into more indie comics with soul. I got into underground comix, stuff like Kaz, but also going back to retro comics or stuff I never read like Watchmen (this was years before the movie). Daniel Clowes is good. If you don't like it, I get it. It's not for everyone, but it's most likely way better than whatever manga or webcomic shit you're reading right now.
More manga
Gay and boring.
I liked his funny stuff
I didn't like his serious stuff, felt too self indulgent
libshit
Let me guess, he said Trump is an orange fat fuck retard (true) and he broke you.
LYNCHED.
Also it's crazy how much stuff from Eightball has been turned into movies or copied by other artists.
In the 2000s my local library had From Hell, Mad Magazine, and Masterworks stuff along with comic strips. Good shit. Also a lot of Osamu Tezuka.
Would it be CLOWED or CLOWESED?
I don't think Crumb ever gaf about cape comics one way or another. He was just doing his own thing. He certainly hasn't spent decades crying about it.
I enjoyed Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron quite a bit. I've never really liked any of his other work enough to go back to it- but strangely enough I've read almost all of it.
Johnson's comment about Crumb is more about opposition to the Comics Code in general, and there is evidence that Crumb was thinking about deliberately flaunting the CCA early on, even if he obviously moved on from that later in his career.
Fair enough.
I will say that even early on, he never seemed bitter about it.
"Closed"
I don't
I don't hate him.
Nice selection.
you really had very few options in the 90s and earlier
The problem is today the books on their shelves mostly feature stories about sensitive teenage girls with intentionally simplified artwork just a couple steps above Dog Boy, so while in the US the medium finally left the capeshit ghetto, it just moved to a different repetitive mode and ironically one even more locked into self-insertion.
We didn't diversify shit compared to Asia, Europe, or even South America because our alternative for the 80s and 90s were either quirky/antisocial artfags who would soon see webcomics steal their market overnight, or that dull fotonovela-tier soap opera comic book about the crying lesbianas Gary Groth kept trying to trick us into reading.
If we're still talking about what's in the library, mine certainly has Dog Man and a fair number of post-Telgemeier girl comics, but it also has a broad array of everything else from classic Marvel and DC, manga, and outside of the Teen section, Fantagraphics/D&Q stuff. My original point was just that before the 2000s there was jack squat you could look up at a library, and I do think that it's thanks to efforts from some of the artfag cartoonists (imo Spiegelman and the RAW crowd had the biggest effect here, moreso than Clowes or anyone else that Groth was publishing) that libraries eventually embraced the medium.
As far as the dismal state of the industry goes, I see that as being directly tied to the widespread mainstream apathy towards comics. Small market means small money means small product diversity and quality. Even when there is good stuff, people don't care enough to buy it. The only stuff that makes money are a few big shounen titles and Dog Man.
CLOWSED
If baffles me how DOG SHIT modern Marvel artists are. Like I get they get paid like shit but you would think they would be able to get some hungry up and comer that can actually draw.
Why not?
I don't, he sort of rocks. I think a lot of his crime comics suck but more down Earth shit like Ice Haven, Wilson, and Ghost World are classics